The Construction Insiders: Episode 3
Podcast Transcript
Jason: Welcome to the latest episode of the Construction Insiders podcast, where our host, Jessica Busch, talks with industry experts about new trends, best practices, and how to successfully deliver construction projects in todayâs market. Whatever your role on a project, we think youâll find these discussions interesting and worth your time.
Jessica: Okay, well thank you Jason. This afternoon we are going to change topics a little bit, and for this episode weâre going to talk about themed entertainment, and we couldnât think of a better person to bring in than our own Asif Parkar. He has been leading up our themed entertainment group for years, well before I got here, so itâs all Iâve known and he works on the most secretive, the most fascinating projects, I have to say, our company is in charge of and manages. So, we rarely get to sit down with him and talk about these projects because he wonât tell us a peep about them. But today I convinced him to come in and weâre going to talk this space and his very unique skillset and how that plays into these projects and getting them completed so we all can have fun at these theme parks. And you know, heâs done everything â not to brag too much about you, Asif â but everything from the Universal in Beijing, Dubai Parks and Resorts, Disney parks all over from here on the mainland to, where, over in Shanghai, I mean you handle it all over the place. So, Iâm really happy that you were able to join us and come out today and hopefully we can get some good information out there.
Asif: Thanks very much, Jessica. Iâm very pleased to be here, thanks for inviting me.
Jessica: Alright, so without too much time Iâm just going to jump on in because I have a lot of questions for you and we have a short amount of time to get through them. So, just a little bit about, kind of giving the listener, I mean, Iâve kind of said everything about, you know, project-wise what you work on with us and all of your expertise there, but a little bit of your background and kind of what got you into this kind of very specific space of themed entertainment. Itâs not something that you hear about a lot on the construction side, project management side, excuse me, so what was your background and how did you get into this space?
Asif: Okay, well, I grew up in London and Iâm actually a trained quantity surveyor by background â for those of you who donât know what quantity surveyor is, just think estimator in the U.S. â and I worked for several companies in London before attaining chartership status with the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. I always wondered what it would be like to work on theme parks and attractions. I tended to be more interested in projects that were complex or unique in a certain aspect and so that kind of led me to theme parks and attractions. And the folks that I spoke to, they repeatedly told me that the overwhelming majority of world-class theme parks were actually in America, so at that point I set my sights on looking for a company and seeing if one even existed that kind of focused on such a narrow scope of work in the industry.
Jessica: Right, okay.
Asif: I was fortunate enough that I came across Cumming and then, of course, even more fortunate that they made me an offer.
Jessica: Back then, did we â because you might be more of the historian with the company â did we have a themed entertainment sector or was this kind of your baby that you started, seeing the need in the industry?
Asif: We did have a skillset. Our founder, Finlay Cumming, you know he had worked for Walt Disney Imagineering back in the day, so thatâs where the roots â
Jessica: So, we had history in that, ok.
Asif: Exactly.
Jessica: Makes sense, ok. Well, and so when you joined and kind of took over this group and kind of made it into what it is today, such a big part of our business is this themed entertainment sector. What were you working on then, what did those projects look like back then? Was it the Disneys and Universals, is that how we started?
Asif: Yeah, very much the first few projects were working for Disney. They might have been a small engagement where either we had some staff that were seconded on site to Disney or it could have been some estimating perhaps that was done in the offices. Could have been a variety of things, from a rehab of an existing attraction all the way up to a full attraction.
Jessica: Hm, wow okay. So what weâre talking about, this kind of unique sector, unique beast that it is, what certain, we talk about the skillset, right â what are those skills, what are those unique knowledge bits that you need, what do you look for when weâre hiring or what are the Disneys, Universals of the world looking for when they come to us?
Asif: Well, the theme park world really can be broken down into three main components â
Jessica: Ok.
Asif: Which is called facility, show, and ride. The facility really covers the base building of an attraction and most estimators can kind of capture that, itâs the steel, concrete, MEP systems and so forth, you donât need to be a specialist to really cover that.
Jessica: So, you could be, you know, really well-versed in mixed-use, things like that, to cover that?
Asif: Exactly, and there are some nuances, whether itâs theme plaster or rock work, but thatâs very easy to coach at that level. So thatâs the facility components, most folks can pick that up. If youâve been estimating for a period of time itâll come as second nature.
Jessica: Thereâs similarities â
Asif: Yeah.
Jessica: Between other sectors.
Asif: For sure. Then we get into what makes these projects what they are, the magic, and thatâs called show components.
Jessica: Sounds flashy.
Asif: Right? Absolutely. So, when we talk about show components, weâre talking about things like animatronics, LN2 [liquid nitrogen] systems, weâre talking about audiovisual systems, projection systems. All of these things suddenly open up and theyâre a skillset that you donât learn even if youâve been estimating or doing project management for 30 years on non-theme park projects.
Jessica: Mm hm.
Asif: Theyâre very very unique to this industry.
Jessica: Ok.
Asif: And then thereâs a third component which is the rides. A little bit easier to understand, of course, itâs the coasters, simulators, those types of things, but between show and ride youâve probably got, depending on which classification systems you use, could be up to 30 to 40 divisions of work to really master this.
Jessica: Ok, so when weâre talking about these projects and bringing the ride to the visitor, thereâs a lot of steps in between there. Is there some sort of, you know, universal metric for costing for building these out that is used? I know a couple podcasts ago we talked to our in-house MEP expert and he was really talking about the need for this universal, you know, published metrics so that everyone is speaking the same language. So when it comes to themed entertainment, I know we have the big giants, you know we have the regional zoos, the aquariums, things all over the place that maybe donât walk the same walk as Disney or do things a little bit differently. Are there these universal metrics that people are using or how do people with your specialty talk the same talk? How does that work?
Asif: Itâs a great question, Jessica. Typically, if I focus just a little bit on estimating, folks are wired to think in terms of cost per square foot, or cost per square meter if youâre working internationally. That approach works for, say the base building of an attraction, but it really doesnât work when you get into show and ride. Iâll give you one small example. You could have two identical dark rides and one of them has media that costs $10 million and one has media that costs $1 million for a variety of reasons. When you divide that across the cost per square foot, it really skews the numbers and is not really a meaningful kind of metric you can use. So thatâs one of the challenges. The other is thereâs no real standardized chart of accounts in this industry.
Jessica: Ok.
Asif: So typically â
Jessica: Is that, is that because everything is so unique? Or is the industry just not there yet in this sector?
Asif: I think part of it, or most of it, is really down to confidentiality.
Jessica: Hm.
Asif: So, a lot of these projects, the owners really keep all the project data to themselves and so weâre in a very privileged position. In my vantage point, I get to work with all kinds of owners, all kinds of creative designers working on projects all across the world.
Jessica: Mm hm.
Asif: So, Iâm able to benchmark stuff, but of course I have a constraint that I cannot share any of that kind of information.
Jessica: Right. So youâre seeing it from, you know, the 3,000 foot level and youâre able to kind of see, âOh man, how theyâre doing it hereâs great,â or âOoh, they could â lessons learned,â but youâve signed so many NDAs that thereâs â
Asif: Exactly, and I think Iâve been doing this too long because Iâm not joking when I say this, I can recognize a creative designer from a color palette on a drawing.
Jessica: Really?
Asif: Yeah.
Jessica: You know who did it?
Asif: I know who uses a distinctive orange and other colors.
Jessica: Oh, how funny. Well, I guess thatâs why people bring you on board, right? Cause you know down to those details. Very cool. Okay. So, you know, we talked about kind of the differences of, you know, you canât just be a hospitality guy or mixed-use guy, and how detailed and unique this sector is. As we go into, you know, weâre entering into 2020 now, canât believe it, how do you see the industry? I mean, as someone that has seen it for so many years through ups, downs, with the current market today, are we, are things booming in themed entertainment? Are they cautious? What is that looking like? To kind of change gears here.
Asif: Yeah, I started purely working in themed entertainment in 2008, and at that time we did have a downturn.
Jessica: I was gonna say â
Asif: A deep downturn.
Jessica: Thatâs a very interesting time to start in themed entertainment.
Asif: But the funny thing is, in terms of, say, investment and folks designing theme parks, a downturn doesnât necessarily limit a theme park development. The reason for that is a theme park, a full theme park, may take seven to 10 years to go from inception to actually opening. So, a downturn sometimes is not a bad thing to happen because owners can take advantage of a very competitive market.
Jessica: Labor â
Asif: Yup
Jessica: Cheap.
Asif: Yup, great pricing and then by the time that theyâve finished with the project weâve probably just come out of that recession.
Jessica: So, they have made a deal.
Asif: Exactly, itâs all timing.
Jessica: Life, right? Life is timing. Ok, ok, so where are they kind of at in the mix right now? Are thingsâŠ
Asif: Yeah, so right now Iâd say the market is buoyant, itâs been buoyant for many, many years. Weâve been fortunate in our own group that weâve managed to work on one large project, a super project, over the last few years and I donât see that reducing to any extent. Right now across the world thereâs a lot of activity in Asia, both coasts in the U.S. have a lot of activity. California and Orlando, thatâs really where our focus is at the moment, and then beyond that thereâs a few interesting things happening in the Middle East.
Jessica: Really? Ok.
Asif: So, some very very big projects, giga projects that theyâve been termed, and theyâll probably push the envelope a little bit, push the bar in terms of whatâs possible. So thatâs, thatâs quite exciting.
Jessica: So, in terms of, you know, the most creativity, something thatâs completely different, where are those projects happening right now? For you, what are you most excited at? What are you looking at and like, âWow, thatâs somethingâ?
Asif: Yeah, so I think one of the fascinating things about working on theme parks and attractions is that innovation and the fact that people are always trying to do something different, technology moves as well, so being able to harness something like virtual reality or RFID technology and so forth, so that makes it really interesting. It makes it tough as well to manage because a lot of these things have never been done before so thereâs no proof of concept.
Jessica: No proof of concept and you personally must always be having to learn and challenge yourself and read up and just constantly be trying to get that knowledge as well to stay the expert that you are.
Asif: Exactly, itâs an ongoing process. I mean, I donât know anything, thereâs way too much divisions for me to know everything, but it keeps me on my toes and I always tell my team as well, âListen, just try to pick up a new kind of division of work, learn about it, become a master of it, and shortly over a period of time youâll become an expert.â Itâs a big step to be able to manage a single attraction and then a complete theme park one land, and then a complete theme park, and then the most extreme project we had which was managing multiple theme parks, as in Dubai Parks and Resorts. Three theme parks were built, including a water park at the end, all at the same time. Never been done before, incredible.
Jessica: Wow, yeah. Yeah. Talk about a challenge. Well, very cool. Kind of again talking about where we see things going and whatâs going on around the world, what are â other than just innovation, are there other goals that you see these clients having that are similar, or are their goals generally different from each other? What do you see in what the client is looking for and with the market and interest of the visitor today?
Asif: Well, I think ultimately theme park operators are there to earn a profit and to earn a profit they need to get guests at the turnstiles and into the park, so theyâre always trying to do something. Might be the biggest, the windiest, the coolest, the fastest â something, some kind of hook to get people to go to their park. Look at Orlando. Look at how many different theme parks there are and yet, new ones will appear there. Thatâs because you get such a dump of people there that theyâre all fighting, they all have options there. So, I think thatâs pretty incredible and thatâs happening right around the world, really. There isnât really even a patch of earth that doesnât have even a regional park at this moment, you know, so thereâs lots of plans out there.
Jessica: So, people still are getting out of their homes, theyâre still getting excited. You talked about, you know, you talked about Orlando. Do you see that a lot, where thereâs a region, a city, that just really becomes a hub versus having something spread out across different cities? Why having a hub versus having it spread out, youâd think that â I can see pros for both and cons for both.
Asif: Yeah, I think Orlando is very much a unique case. Look, you get whatever it is, 40 million-plus visitors a year to that region, but typically, honestly, I get a lot of phone calls where a prospective developer will say they want to do a theme park in, and Iâll just pick on California for a second, and they want to do it in California and I ask a couple of questions: âWell, why California?â And often itâs because they live there. Well, thatâs not a very good business reason to be building a theme park. These things are difficult enough as it is. So, I think Orlando is the exception, but the reason it gets so much interest is just because you have so many people or people that go there that obviously understand theme parks, so if thereâs a new theme park for them to try, theyâre more kind of educated to try it.
Jessica: Yeah, okay. So kind of on that note, when weâre talking about where are the theme parks located, whatâs coming up, kind of planning for the future and seeing where it goes, what are some of the most interesting kind of lessons learned from these projects around the world that youâve seen? I donât know if you have like your top three or five, but Iâm sure that would be kind of interesting to talk through because Iâm sure youâve seen some crazy things, youâve seen some âwhat are you doing?â thingsâŠ
Asif: Sure, well in terms of a trend thatâs happening, you know, weâve spoken a lot about attractions and theme parks, but when you talk about themed environments, itâs not just about theme parks. I was talking to someone the other day that spoke about needing creative input at medical facilities. And when you think about it, yeah, thatâs a horrible experience for many people, right? To go in and have some surgery, so why not make that a more pleasant experience? Weâve already gone through that cycle in airports, but theyâre doing a lot of that in the retail environment, so this whole aspect about improving the customer experience is not something thatâs necessarily unique to the theme park world.
Jessica: Yeah, so theyâre taking aspects of the flash and the visuals and all of that, now youâre saying thatâs transferring to everything down to healthcare.
Asif: Yeah, yup, yup, absolutely, itâs all about leaving people with smiles on their faces after they visit â
Jessica: The doctor.
Asif: Yeah.
Jessica: After they get their flu shot. After they have surgery. The dentist, well thatâs, the dentist could use some of this. So okay. So, what are some of those lessons learned?
Asif: So, lessons learned â listen, there are many, but thereâs a few things that come up repeatedly. The first one, I would say, is, look, the easiest way, by far the easiest way, to lose financial control of a project during the early stages is down to pure building program. Gross floor area. If you build more, if you increase the size of a building, of course youâre going to add cost, and as obvious as that sounds, youâd be surprised how many projects we work on where there isnât enough focus on that during the early stages. So thatâs one really easy thing to fix, but it happens from project to project. Things will always increase because youâll get additional input from the stakeholders, operations, or safety, or just for guest experience, but having a mechanism where adjustments to GFA (ground floor area) is actually managed and approved, I think thatâs definitely something that can be improved.
Jessica: And so it sounds, I mean youâre quite passionate about that.
Asif: Iâve seen too many projects that have stalled because of it.
Jessica: And so it sounds like that in itself is a reason that coming in so early, someone with your skillset that has seen all these projects, is really important to really get a grasp on that from the start.
Asif: Yeah, absolutely. I would say that we add most value during the earliest stages of design because weâve got so much experience that we donât need a fully developed set of design documents to have an opinion on scope, schedule, or budget.
Jessica: And you can see where itâs going to go, youâve been there a million times.
Asif: Exactly. I mean Iâll give one small example. I worked on a project in Brazil and on that project, it was a corporate center that had high-tech components. So, the owner actually hired a local QS, a quantity surveyor, and we did our own estimate from the U.S. We donât have an office there, so we used our tried and trusted method of researching the marketplace. What happened on that project was that our numbers were higher than the local quantity surveyorâs and initially that caused some concern because they felt that we didnât have a grasp on the market. But as the design developed, our numbers stayed the same, but the local quantity surveyorâs number actually kept creeping up. Â
Jessica: Kept increasing.
Asif: So the reason that that happened was that we were able to identify things and allow for plenty of things that hadnât yet made it to the drawings. The quantity surveyor did pick that up, but only when they started appearing on the drawings.
Jessica: And thatâs something you know thatâs so interesting, we see that across sectors, right? âYou donât know our region or you donât know this,â and itâs like, we donât, we can do all that research, we got that. Thatâs fine. But weâve seen 500 of these projects where your local team, this is their first or second one theyâve seen, and we know what comes next, we have our forecasting team also looking at the market side of things, like whatâs the cost going to change, is there going to be a fluctuation, is there going to be a correction, so even those little outside things that we have our eyes on. So, itâs interesting when things like that happen. You donât want to go to bat with the local team, but itâs like, hey, we just have a little bit more experience with this.
Asif: Yeah, actually â
Jessica: Weâve seen this before.
Asif: It even comes across in the questions. Letâs take the example of an attraction. If you donât have enough experience on an attraction, you donât even know to ask, âHow many minutes of media does this have? Do we have show action equipment? Is there show control?â You wonât even know to ask those questions.
Jessica: Right. So whatâs another good one that youâve seen, that youâre like, âOof, gotta avoid thatâ?
Asif: Actually, Iâll pick on one that happens at the end. Most clients ask for close-out reports.
Jessica: Ok.
Asif: And, you know, thereâs a perception that you do that at the end of a project, right? You know, youâve got everythingâs done, youâve put a nice neat bow on it.
Jessica: Itâs in the name, âclose-outâ report.
Asif: My opinion is, donât leave it âtil the end.
Jessica: Really?
Asif: Do it as you go along. Capture the data. Whatever you need. Capture it as you go along. Itâll be more meaningful, because if you capture it as you go along, people will check it and thatâs when sanity checks will be done. And then at the end, you know, if you need to tweak something or go back and get a final, thatâs relatively easy to do. But this concept of doing it right at the end, it doesnât work. People are focused on doing their next job. It becomes a âcheck the boxâ exercise. Thatâs definitely something that I would recommend. Just do it as you go along.
Jessica: And it seems like there would just be more detail, there would be, itâs not being rushed at the end, that there would be a lot of benefit to, just as you said, having those checks and balances along the way.
Asif: Yeah, and people are invested in giving you the right information at that point because if you check it along the way, the project is live! So you actually get the real data.
Jessica: Right, huh, interesting. Ok, so not to take too much of your time, but since you are the themed entertainment guy, what is your favorite ride? What do you enjoy most personally about the industry and why are you still doing it?
Asif: Well, letâs see. When it comes to favorite rides, the top place has been knocked off by various rides that have come out in recent years. It used to be Indiana Jones for me.
Jessica: Ok.
Asif: Until I did Forbidden Journey.
Jessica: Ok.
Asif: And then I went to Orlando and did Right of Passage and thatâs just number one for me at the moment. I donât want to give too much away, I think guests just have to…
Jessica: For all the junkies out there going this holiday season.
Asif: And in terms of what I like most, I tell you, when I visit a theme park, to this day when I go, what I like most is going with someone that has not been to the park or attraction, always.
Jessica: Really?
Asif: I just love seeing their reactions and whether itâs Soaring at Disney, whether itâs going to Knottâs Berry Farm, or one of my favorites is the reveal moment in Diagon Alley in Orlando, again I wonât say any more about that, you guys will need to research it.
Jessica: Donât ruin it. Very cool, ok. Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about or bring up that maybe people out there in the industry, whether theyâre an owner or a team thatâs been assigned to one of these new rides, what would they want to hear?
Asif: Yeah, I think what Iâd say â look, to be able to provide project management or estimating for these types of projects is not necessarily a career path that a lot of people even know exists. So, if you have an industry interest and you want to explore something in this industry, there are some great organizations out there, the TEA, IAAPA, Blue Loop, and then if youâre not put off by learning, being a sponge, absorbing as much as you can, youâre not fazed by working on projects that donât have nice neat square lines, then maybe the theme park world might be something for you. Itâs high intensity, high octane, but I tell you at the end of it thereâs a lot of satisfaction with being able to do something like this because not many can.
Jessica: Well, awesome. Thank you for sitting down with us and hopefully this was informative and entertaining for other people that have an interest in this sector as well.
Asif: Alright, well thanks so much Jessica.
Jessica: Alright, weâll talk soon, thanks Asif.
Asif: Alright.
Jason: If you enjoyed this episode of Construction Insiders, we encourage you to check out our website at www.ccorpusa.com, thatâs ccorpusa.com. Where you can find our full knowledge library under the Insights tab. Itâs all great stuff, weâre really passionate about it, and we hope youâll check it out. Thanks for listening.